The Lifestyle Prescription with Pharmacy Planet Episode 12 - Unpacking Sleep: Expert Tips on Insomnia, Sleep Disorders & Better Sleep Habits with Dr Lindsay Browning

2. Meet Dr Lindsay Browning & Her Background

Rena Annobil: First, I want to find out a bit more about you. What made you focus on sleep in your career?

Dr Lindsay: To be a sleep expert in the UK, there isn’t actually a formal qualification, so technically anyone could sit here talking about sleep. There’s no regulation. Hopefully my qualifications reassure you and your listeners that what I’m saying comes from expertise.

I’ve got a degree in psychology, a master’s in neuroscience, and then I did a doctorate at the University of Oxford looking specifically at insomnia — how it happens and how to treat it.

During my doctorate, I met many people who were struggling and realised how big an issue poor sleep is and how debilitating it can be. After graduating, I set up my sleep practice Trouble Sleeping to work with individuals and companies on better sleep. That was almost 20 years ago, and I genuinely love what I do.

3. Foundations of Sleep & Changing Attitudes

Rena Annobil: Let’s get into the foundations of sleep. We know we need sleep and roughly why we need it, but how important is it to get a certain amount?

Dr Lindsay: When I graduated, sleep was often seen as an inconvenience. People would say, “I wish I could get by on five hours,” and CEOs would boast about sleeping only four or five hours as a badge of honour.

But sleep is not a waste of time. It is massively important. The more research we do, the more we see how critical it is. Sacrificing sleep to get more emails done or tick off a few more tasks is actually a waste of time.

The problem is, a lot of sleep education focuses on “you must get your eight hours,” and we’ll talk about whether that’s helpful. That messaging is aimed at people who choose to sacrifice sleep. For those who already care about sleep but can’t sleep, that message becomes scary and unhelpful.

Rena Annobil: I feel like Gen Z are more clued up about sleep and looking after themselves. In my generation, it was a badge of honour to sleep at 2am, wake at 5am and still go out. “I’ll sleep when I’m dead” was the thing to say. We grew up with that attitude, which clearly isn’t healthy.

4. How Much Sleep Do We Really Need? (The Eight-Hour Myth)

Rena Annobil: Does the amount of sleep we need change with age?

Dr Lindsay: Research shows that for a working-age adult, the “Goldilocks zone” is typically 7–9 hours a night. People in that range tend to have better heart health, lower risk of certain cancers, healthier weight, and lower risk of stroke, heart disease and dementia.

But that doesn’t mean there is one perfect number. That’s where the eight-hour myth is unhelpful. It’s like saying we should all be the same weight or height. We’re different. Our sleep needs are partly genetic and partly related to what we’re doing and our life stage.

Younger people often need more sleep. As we get older, we may need a little less because we might be less physically active or not learning as many new things. Children are physically growing and need deep sleep to produce growth hormone and grow. Children who don’t sleep enough can be shorter than their peers.

If you’re 45, 50, 60, you almost certainly won’t need or get the same type of sleep you did at 21. I see many perimenopausal or menopausal women who say, “I just wish I could sleep like when I was 21.” Part of my job is to help improve their sleep, but also to explain that you’re not the same person as you were then — so your sleep won’t be either.

Rena Annobil: So you’ve basically busted the eight-hour myth?

Dr Lindsay: Yes. Some people need seven hours, some need nine, some six and a half. It’s a spectrum. If you’re getting roughly seven to nine hours and feel refreshed in the day, that’s enough for you, whether you’re closer to seven or nine.

5. Sleep Pressure, Clock-Watching & Anxiety About Hours

Rena Annobil: I used to be obsessed with how many hours I slept. It became a vicious cycle. I’d lie there thinking, “You must get eight or nine hours.” Every hour I wasn’t asleep, I’d subtract: now it’s only seven hours, now only six. It created so much anxiety.

After I had kids, I gave that up because counting made me miserable. I got to a point where a six-hour block felt amazing. That’s sort of stayed with me. Does six hours work for some people?

Dr Lindsay: Absolutely, for some. There’s a very small number of people who genetically only need four or five hours — true short sleepers — but they’re rare.

We can all survive on less sleep. Personally, to be “best Lindsay,” I need about eight and three-quarter hours a night. I know that because I’ve experimented. But I rarely get that; I’m a busy working parent.

If you’re a parent of young children or in a busy work phase, you won’t always get the sleep that would make you your best. You can survive on less — but if you can get more, you’ll likely benefit.

If you sleep six hours and feel refreshed, not tired in the day, that might be fine for you. But if you’re flagging or having big catch-up sleeps at the weekend, that may be a sign six hours isn’t truly enough.

6. What Happens in Our Brains When We Sleep?

Rena Annobil: What is happening to our brains when we sleep?

Dr Lindsay: The brain doesn’t turn off. We cycle through light sleep, deep sleep, and REM sleep (rapid eye movement). Each cycle is about 90 minutes, but don’t try to chop your night into 90-minute chunks — that’s unhelpful.

Each stage does different jobs:

Deep sleep: growth hormone release, physical repair
REM sleep: emotional processing, memory integration
Light sleep: transitions and various regulatory processes
During sleep we:

Strengthen the immune system
Regulate hormones
Clear amyloid plaques linked to Alzheimer’s
Form new memories
Repair muscle
We can’t force someone to have only deep sleep or only REM, so much of our knowledge comes from associations: people with less deep sleep have certain problems; those with disrupted REM have others. What we do know is that we need all stages.

7. Insomnia: Definition, Impact & CBT-I

Rena Annobil: Let’s talk about sleep issues. What are the most common problems you see in clinic?

Dr Lindsay: Insomnia. As a sleep psychologist, I treat people with insomnia. It doesn’t mean not sleeping at all; it means having significant difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep, or waking too early and not getting back to sleep.

Often, people intend to sleep seven or eight hours but end up with four or five. Over time, this leads to:

Exhaustion
Anxiety and low mood
Poor functioning at work and home
Major life impacts (people quitting jobs, serious mental health difficulties)
Some people say, “I’m just a bad sleeper; that’s who I am.” But there’s no such thing as a permanently bad sleeper. It’s fixable.

I use Cognitive Behavioural Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I) — the gold standard treatment. It helps people relearn how to fall and stay asleep without anxiety and pressure. The cycle of “I must sleep or I’ll be ruined tomorrow” increases stress and makes sleep less likely. CBT-I breaks that cycle.

8. Children, Parental Messages & Bedtime Anxiety

Rena Annobil: I noticed this with my nine-year-old daughter. I’d say things like, “Come on, you need to sleep, you’ve got a big day tomorrow.” That made her think, “Quick, go to sleep, you must be rested,” which created anxiety. She’d say, “It’s 10 o’clock and I’m still awake!”

I realised my wording was making it worse, so I changed to: “Doesn’t matter, you’ll be fine, it’s a bit late but don’t worry.” That helped because the fear disappeared.

Dr Lindsay: I see that a lot. Parents say, “You have to get enough sleep or you won’t be able to learn tomorrow,” thinking it’s motivating. But it adds pressure and anxiety, especially for compliant children who want to please their parents.

They lie in bed thinking, “Mummy and Daddy say I must sleep,” which makes it harder. Adults can decide to get up or do something else; young children can’t.

9. Bedtime Routines for Kids & The Role of Phones

Rena Annobil: Realistically, I’d love to tell all my kids, “It’s 8pm, go to sleep, see you in the morning,” because I need my own rest. But everyone needs different amounts of sleep, and it’s especially important for kids. If we shouldn’t say “Go to sleep now or else,” what’s the best way to handle bedtime?

Dr Lindsay: We need a recommended bedtime and downtime, not a strict “sleep on command.”

Set a clear “bedroom time” where children are in their rooms and the day is over.
If they’re not sleepy, give them calm, low-stimulation options (drawing, puzzles, quiet crafts).
Avoid activities so engaging they’d fight sleep to continue (for many children, that includes Lego, gaming or intense reading).
Phones are especially problematic. The issue isn’t just blue light; it’s the design of apps like TikTok, Instagram and YouTube — they’re built to keep us scrolling. Kids and adults lose track of time, then realise it’s midnight.

Children don’t have fully developed frontal lobes, so they’re more impulsive and less able to self-regulate. Removing the temptation (no phones in the bedroom) is often kinder and more effective than relying on willpower.

10. Adult Phone Habits & Reclaiming the Bedroom

Rena Annobil: I used to scroll on my phone to fall asleep — even reading news articles late at night. My husband kept suggesting I keep my phone out of the bedroom. Eventually I bought an old-school alarm clock. It was honestly the best thing I ever did.

Now I don’t feel comfortable having a phone in the bedroom. My kids have proper alarm clocks too; I don’t want them relying on phones either.

Dr Lindsay: It’s the same principle as diet. If your home is full of visible sweets, you’ll eat them. If your phone is on your bedside table, you’ll likely pick it up.

Putting the phone elsewhere — in a drawer, across the room, or in another room — removes the constant temptation. You can still be contactable in a genuine emergency but not mindlessly scrolling at 2am.

No one wakes up in the morning thinking, “I’m so glad I spent that extra hour on social media instead of sleeping.”

11. When Does Sleeplessness Become Insomnia?

Rena Annobil: We’ve talked about routines, phones and environment. But if someone still struggles to fall asleep, when do we know it’s really insomnia?

Dr Lindsay: A rough clinical guide:

It takes more than ~30 minutes to fall asleep, or
You’re awake for more than ~30 minutes in the night, or
You wake up more than ~30 minutes before your alarm and can’t get back to sleep,
And this happens at least 3 nights a week for a period of time,
And you feel tired in the day.
That’s when we’d consider insomnia.

Everyone has the odd bad night. One or two poor nights can be due to a cold, stress at work, or something that resolves. Good sleep isn’t perfect sleep. I’m a sleep expert and a good sleeper but still have occasional terrible nights — and that’s normal.

The key is not to panic. If you can’t sleep:

Don’t lie there forcing it.
Get up, go to another room if you can.
Do something calm (reading, low-key activity) until you feel sleepy again.
That breaks the association between bed and stress.

12. Sleep & Mental Health: A Two-Way Relationship

Rena Annobil: That link between sleep and mental health — it’s a two-way thing, isn’t it?

Dr Lindsay: Yes. People with sleep problems are more likely to experience depression and anxiety, and people with depression or anxiety are more likely to have sleep difficulties.

The good news is that improving one often improves the other. If your mood is low and sleep is poor, focusing just on sleep can lift your mood a bit. Likewise, treating anxiety or depression can improve sleep as a side effect. It gives people more than one route into feeling better.

13. Women’s Health: Hormones, Pregnancy & Menopause

Rena Annobil: Let’s focus on women’s health: hormones, pregnancy, menopause. There’s a lot affecting women’s sleep, isn’t there?

Dr Lindsay: Yes. Women are more likely to have sleep difficulties than men — as with many things, it doesn’t feel fair.

Hormonal fluctuations affect sleep at multiple stages:

Puberty
Monthly menstrual cycles
Pregnancy
Postpartum
Perimenopause and menopause
On top of that, in pregnancy you have the physical impact of the baby: pressure on the bladder, discomfort, difficulty getting settled. During menopause, hot flushes and night sweats can wake you drenched. Anxiety surges are also common and can make it hard to fall back asleep.

Women also often shoulder more night-time childcare, especially when breastfeeding, so their sleep is fragmented.

Some evidence suggests women may need around 11 minutes more sleep than men on average, yet we’re more at risk of poor sleep.

14. Practical Strategies for Hormonal Sleep Disruption

Rena Annobil: So what can women do to still get decent sleep during these hormonal stages?

Dr Lindsay: First, accept that it’s normal and not a personal failing.

Then put practical things in place:

Keep spare nightwear by the bed to quickly change after night sweats.
Sleep on a towel you can swap out easily.
Consider two single duvets (the “Swiss sleep method”) so each partner can manage temperature without disturbing the other.
Choose different togs if your temperature needs differ.
Remember: everyone wakes briefly between sleep cycles. Waking once or twice in the night — even with a hot flush — doesn’t ruin your whole night. Deal with the disruption as calmly and efficiently as possible, then return to bed without catastrophising.

15. Lifestyle, Bedroom Environment & Self-Sabotage

Rena Annobil: How much do lifestyle and environment matter? Are we sometimes self-sabotaging?

Dr Lindsay: Yes. A common example is working from bed. If you answer emails in bed, your brain starts to link the bed with work, stress and thinking — not relaxation.

Ideally, the bedroom should be for sleep and sex only. Many of us don’t have spare rooms, but we can still:

Use a desk instead of the bed for work.
Declutter the bedroom and finish half-done projects.
Make the bedroom visually calming and pleasant.
Use curtains that block light and windows that reduce noise.
Build in a wind-down period before sleep instead of going straight from doom-scrolling or emails to bed.
Small environmental changes send the signal, “This space is for rest.”

16. Temperature, Bed Warmers & The Ideal Sleep Climate

Rena Annobil: My husband and I argue a lot about temperature. I got addicted to a heated under-blanket and found myself using it into April. Some people say we should sleep cooler; others love being toasty. What’s actually healthy?

Dr Lindsay: There’s variation, but research suggests an ideal bedroom temperature of around 16–18°C (up to about 19°C). That feels cool, but remember you’re warmer under the covers.

We need core body temperature to drop slightly to fall asleep. During the day, our internal body temperature is roughly one degree higher than at night. If the bedroom is too warm, that drop is harder, which is why heatwaves make sleep difficult.

You can still use warmth strategically:

Different duvet togs for partners
Hot water bottles for naturally cold sleepers
Bed warmers used briefly then turned off
The main thing is: a too hot room often harms sleep; a slightly cool room with cosy bedding is ideal.

17. Naps & Catch-Up Sleep

Rena Annobil: Are naps helpful for getting enough sleep?

Dr Lindsay: It depends on why, when and how long.

Naps can be helpful:

If you’re a new parent or had a disrupted night
If they’re short (around 20–25 minutes)
If they’re earlier in the day
They’re less helpful if:

You have insomnia and nap daily to compensate for poor nights
You nap late in the afternoon or evening
Naps routinely last 45+ minutes, dropping you into deep sleep
Waking from deep sleep mid-cycle often makes you feel groggy and “jet-lagged,” which is why long naps can feel like you’ve been drugged.

Catching up on sleep:
If you have chronic insomnia, falling into a yo-yo pattern (3–4 hours one night, 9 hours the next) can keep the problem going. In that case, more regular, steady bed and wake times work better.

If you’ve simply had one terrible night (sick children, travel, emergencies), allowing some extra sleep the next night is fine — but it’s not exactly like repaying a bank debt. Getting enough sleep consistently is still better.

18. Shift Work, Night Shifts & Protecting Daytime Sleep

Rena Annobil: What about people doing shift work or night shifts? I worry about how healthy that is, especially when they still have daytime responsibilities.

Dr Lindsay: It’s tough. People working shifts, especially nights, typically get about two hours less sleep per night than nine-to-five workers.

Why?

Daytime noise and light
Deliveries, school runs, appointments
Family expectations
Practical steps:

Talk to family and explain the importance of a protected sleep window.
Put a sign on the door: “[Mum/Dad] is sleeping until 3pm, please don’t knock.”
Use blackout curtains, eye masks and earplugs.
Redirect deliveries to parcel shops where possible.
Use strategic naps (e.g. 4–5 hours main sleep plus a later top-up).
Long-term night work has health implications, but many people can improve how they manage it with structure and support.

19. Family Sleep Set-Ups, Kids in Beds & Sleep Crutches

Rena Annobil: Do people tell you about their sleep arrangements? I spent almost two years half-hanging off a bottom bunk because I’d “fake sleep” to get my daughter to sleep and then actually fall asleep there. Meanwhile my husband was in our bed, and I was being kicked all night by a child.

A lot of families seem to have these makeshift arrangements.

Dr Lindsay: All the time. I see:

Parents sleeping on mattresses on children’s floors
Children in the parents’ bed and the partner in a bunk bed
Pets brought in as “sleep companions”
These things are often done out of desperation — “I just need everyone to sleep.” But over time they become the norm and can:

Damage relationships and remove couple time
Fragment adults’ sleep
Prevent children learning how to sleep independently
A common trigger to change is when the child reaches 9–11 years old and faces school trips or sleepovers. Suddenly they panic: “How will I sleep without Mum? Without my usual set-up?”

Helping children gradually sleep independently (moving from parent in bed → chair next to bed → chair by door → outside room) is often more successful than an abrupt “cold turkey” approach.

20. Teenagers, Late Nights & Weekend Lie-Ins

Rena Annobil: Is it normal or okay for teens to go to sleep at midnight and wake at midday?

Dr Lindsay: Biologically, yes — up to a point. Around 11–13 years old, teenagers’ circadian rhythms shift later. Their bodies naturally want to sleep later and wake later.

If there were no school or fixed commitments, it wouldn’t really matter if your teenager slept 2am–11am. But:

Schools start early
Mondays come after weekends of late nights and lie-ins
If teens sleep 2am–noon on weekends, 7am wake-ups on Monday feel like 1am for you or me — like jet lag.

Ideally, teenagers would:

Keep a fairly consistent wake time all week, including weekends
Avoid very long lie-ins
Gradually shift bedtime earlier by getting up at the same time daily
It’s not what they want to hear, and it can cause arguments, but it’s how we stabilise their body clocks.

21. Simple, Practical Advice for Better Sleep

Rena Annobil: Are there a few simple pieces of advice people can implement straight away?

Dr Lindsay: Key tips:

Consistent wake-up time
Try to get up at roughly the same time every day (within about an hour), including weekends. Your body clock thrives on consistency.
Don’t lie in bed forcing sleep
If you haven’t fallen asleep after about 20–30 minutes, get up, go to another room and do something calm. Return to bed when you feel sleepy.
Don’t panic about night wakings
Waking once or twice in the night, even to use the loo, is normal. It doesn’t automatically mean your sleep quality is ruined.
Separate bed from work and screens
Keep laptops and phones away from the bed where possible.
Give yourself a wind-down
Build in time before bed to slow down mentally, rather than going straight from screens or stress into sleep.

22. Sleep Aids: Warm Milk, Herbal Tea & Lavender

Rena Annobil: People always recommend things like a cup of warm milk before bed. Does that help?

Dr Lindsay: If you’re hungry, you’re more likely to wake or struggle to sleep. A warm drink, including milk, can help by:

Providing a small amount of food
Gently warming you, then letting your body cool, nudging the natural temperature drop into sleep
It’s not a magic cure, but it can be a helpful part of a pre-sleep routine if you enjoy it.

Herbal “sleepy teas” and lavender pillow sprays aren’t miracle fixes either, but as part of a consistent routine they can signal to your brain that bedtime is coming. If the smell and ritual relax you, they can be useful psychologically.

23. Alcohol, Caffeine & Sleep Quality

Rena Annobil: Some people will be thinking, “Forget milk, I want something stronger.” What about alcohol?

Dr Lindsay: Alcohol is a sedative. It might help you fall asleep faster or “pass out,” but:

It fragments sleep later in the night
It interferes with REM sleep
You often wake dehydrated and restless
You may fall asleep quickly but the sleep you get is poor quality. So please don’t use alcohol as a sleep aid.

Rena Annobil: And caffeine? Some people won’t have tea or coffee after 5pm. I’m the opposite — I’ve been known to have an espresso at 6pm and sleep fine.

Dr Lindsay: Caffeine has a half-life of about six hours, meaning half of it is still in your system six hours after you drink it. But people metabolise caffeine differently.

Some will be wide awake from a 5pm coffee.
Others, like you and me, could have an espresso after dinner and still sleep.
If your sleep is generally fine, an occasional late coffee probably isn’t catastrophic, but daily heavy caffeine use isn’t ideal. If you’re trying to optimise sleep or struggle with insomnia, it’s wise to cut caffeine by mid-afternoon.

24. Prescription & Over-the-Counter Sleep Medication

Rena Annobil: What about sleeping tablets — prescribed or herbal? Is there ever a right time to use them?

Dr Lindsay: I’m a psychologist so I don’t prescribe, but many of my clients have been given Z-drugs such as zopiclone.

They can:

Help in the very short term (e.g. acute crisis, post-surgery, occasional specific events)
Sedate you so you fall asleep and stay asleep for part of the night
But they don’t fix why you’re not sleeping. Tolerance develops quickly — a dose that gave you seven hours the first night may give you only five after a couple of weeks. That’s why guidelines limit them to short-term use.

Over-the-counter sleep aids (often antihistamine-based) can make you drowsy but again, they don’t resolve the root cause.

My entire job is to help people fix the core problem using CBT-I so their sleep improves naturally and stays good in the long term.

25. Closing Thoughts

Rena Annobil: Thank you so much for all your advice. I love your holistic approach to sleep and sleep issues. We’ll add links so people can contact you if they’d like more help.

To everyone watching and listening, I hope you’ve taken something you can implement in your own life from this episode. Please like, share, subscribe — and rest well.